Are You Even Listening?

An interview with Jake Cregger of The Index, Triac, Backslider, Reeking Cross, etc.

Photo Credit: Ben Price

Jake Cregger’s drum wisdom knows no bounds. Our interview only lasted about an hour, but we probably could have talked for days straight without exhausting topics.

Cregger has been tearing it up since “however old you are in third grade...” Over the last two decades, he’s released a plethora of extreme metal albums with various groups – The Index, Triac, Backslider, Reeking Cross, etc. Before I even made the connection that Cregger was a master metal drummer, I knew him for his angular, Jeff Mooridian-esque grooves in noise rock trio Multicult, a group in which he was the longstanding drummer of 10 years. He was also part of a Dischord-affiliated post punk project called Highway Cross; he very fittingly channels Gang of Four’s Hugo Burnham, one of his drum heroes. Lately, Cregger has been focusing on his metal projects and jamming with garage rockers The Ar-Kaics.

Cregger’s grind drumming is truly something to behold. He’s refined his technique to maximize speed and power. He doesn’t rely on triggers or mics to communicate beyond the kit. Instead he uses Moeller technique (albeit unintentionally) to blast at lightspeed and still cut through the mix. Just listen to Triac’s In the Blue Room… The sheer ferocity of his shredding on that will make you want to eat your firstborn child.

That said, what I really love about Cregger is that he’s not just a metal drummer. He isn't tied down to any one genre; he’s done it all – from mellow pop to harsh noise. In fact, listening to Cregger’s playing between his various projects can be quite deceiving. He becomes a drum chameleon by adapting his approach and reconfiguring his setup depending on what he’s playing.

As drummers, we know that the most subtle changes can make the biggest differences in playing experience. Cregger takes this a step further, reorienting his position in relation to the kit, using his physicality as almost a part of the instrument: “I angle the snare flatter and drop the seat by an inch or two for Backslider so I can lean into the backbeat, and I set up everything full-tilt and orient myself higher than the snare to play down into it for Triac.” In Multicult and The Ar-Kaics, he even ditches the rack tom altogether to adjust his creative approach to writing and playing.


Triac setup	Multicult setup

These changes let Cregger literally reform himself into the perfect drummer for a given project. And no matter what the project is, he always delivers. His drum parts are perfect! Of course, that’s my humble opinion; hopefully we can at least agree that it’s clear Cregger puts a lot of consideration into what he’s writing.

“The drummers that stand out are the ones that really listen to what they play, and they play to be heard as a key part of the musical context,” he said.

Cregger explained to me that he was a bad listener for a long time. Being a good listener is not about having specific music tastes. It’s also not about keeping an open mind and refraining from immediately labeling what music you’re listening to as good or bad – although that’s part of it, and Cregger’s listening skills directly inform his playing.

Listening, rather, is an awareness that one achieves with experience and a drive to become the best drummer they can be. Cregger is someone who sees mastery as ongoing. He isn’t the drummer he was five years ago, and he certainly won’t be the same drummer five years from now. Whether it’s reconfiguring his drum setup, practicing a certain technique or coming up with the ‘perfect’ drum part, Cregger is someone that works hard to be the best drummer that they can be and will always strive to be better.

Interview with Jake Cregger

What was it like starting playing at such a young age? Why drums?

My siblings played different instruments, so I decided to play drums. I got a practice pad, took a couple lessons with a guy in the DC area, and from then on, it unfolded as a growing interest. And, as someone who had siblings, it was a growing interest that was mine. That was a big part of it. It’s hugely beneficial to any kid to have something that’s truly theirs. Getting into drums at such a young age really turned my brain on – my personality clicked into place. From then on, it was just obsessing over drum stuff, looking at catalogs, checking out music shops, trying to figure it all out.

Who were some early influences?

I remember in one of the early lessons that my teacher asked what I wanted to do and who I wanted to sound like. I told him I wanted to play rock ‘n’ roll drums like Ringo Starr. He said, alright, here’s all you need to do to sound like that, and he showed me how to keep a straight beat and play a fill.

The Smashing Pumpkins were big at the time. Say what you will about them as a band… Jimmy Chamberlin is a phenomenal drummer. I was really lucky to stumble upon him early on. That was a huge point of focus for me because he’s such a dynamic player. He plays with a lot of speed and power but also a lot of control and restraint. Chamberlin was the first big drummer I focused on and learned a lot from after Ringo.

Speaking of speed and power, your blasts are pretty mind blowing. How’d you get them to sound so good? Do you have any techniques you use or tips to improve speed?

One thing I think a lot of people ignore is just doing it, working at it for a long time. A lot of the time it’s just about being bad and being okay with it. It’s not always something that sounds right. I’m in my late 30’s now, and I remember recently recording something and thinking that was the first time my blast actually sounded how I wanted it to sound.

I think playing to your ear is crucial — a lot of people play to a mic. Oftentimes drummers play to their idea of what a blast should sound like. They could be hitting the drum at the right time and in the right place, but it’s not going to be heard five feet away or once there’s other instruments layered on top. So don’t rely entirely on mics and triggers to communicate beyond the kit itself. Your blasts can be fast and consistent, but if you can’t hear it, nobody else can hear it.

With technique, a lot of it is just being ergonomically smart. As a default, I sort of accidentally use Moeller technique. What that really is is just using your muscles to maximize volume and speed with minimal effort. I play with people that are loud, so I want my blasts to cut through. You have to be able to fight through a mix. But I don’t walk around with any one technique in mind. It’s kind of like spinning a bunch of different plates: as you get better and better, you might notice that one foot sounds pretty good, but now your hand has gotten sloppy because you’ve been focusing on your foot. So now you’ve got to focus on your hand, and then your foot goes… It’s about slowly building all of that stuff up.

And you play your blasts with two pedals, right?

Yes, I used to play with one, and I think one of the biggest mistakes was buying the second pedal and getting really comfortable with that. One foot has more of a drive. The timing is just a little bit different, and I like that sound more. I’m not playing every day, so I figure I can keep using both feet. I always admire when people do it with a single foot. Really it all depends on what you’re doing. I could say that it’s a crutch, but there are people who have to play 40 minute sets of fast songs. You do that single pedal, your leg might explode! It all comes down to what you're trying to communicate. Most of the time, I’m playing short bursts of energy in a grind scenario. With the single foot, you can really hear the difference. One sounds like a cannonball falling through floor after floor of a building. Two is more squared off, and it doesn't have the push that one foot permits. To each their own.

Are you looking to go back to single pedal?

I’ve been working on trying to go back to one foot. I can play single easier in threes, so I’m working that in on one project. Currently, it doesn’t sound good, but I’m noticing the more I do it, the better it sounds. If I put in the time, I know for a fact that it’d sound great. The same goes for any player that puts in the time.

What gear are you playing?

First and foremost, gear doesn’t really matter. If you’re good, you’re good. That’s my humble opinion.

If you put a new head on a drum, you’ll play a little differently, notice something new. That’s whenever you change something. For the longest time, I didn’t get new gear at all. I just played whatever was cheap and loud enough to cut through. Maybe seven or eight years ago, I decided I was sick of playing on all the same stuff, and I started grabbing new gear where I could. It’s a ton of fun if you’re fortunate enough to have access to it. I usually steer toward older stuff because I like the nuance to it. For Triac, I recently got a white Tama Granstar from the late 80s – coked out Lars Ulrich style. I got a 10”, 12”, 13”, 14” and 16”, which I don’t use all the time. I like setting everything up.

Think about how many great vintage kits are just collecting dust in people’s storage spaces. It’s so much more fun to hunt for those gems than just splurge at Guitar Center.

Right, you could go into Guitar Center and pick up a $6,000 Sonor kit. It’ll be great, and you’ll never need to buy another kit for the rest of your life, but that’s not nearly as interesting as searching for the perfect kit.

With the Granstar, I found this guy on Craigslist whose parents bought it for him when he was in high school. It never left the house, and he was a jazz guy, so he didn’t really need this metal kit. It was in pristine condition. I also have an 80s 6-ply maple Ludwig that I wrapped in champagne sparkle myself. I have a bunch of snares – Supraphonic, hand-hammered Black Beauty and Signature Stewart Copeland (5.5” brass with diecast tubes coated in chrome), which has been my longstanding Triac snare – but my favorite is my Ludwig Acrolite from ‘67, which I got for only $120! That’s the fun part, not buying the first one you find and waiting for that gem to pop up.

That’s quite the collection. How does your setup differ between projects?

It’s fairly similar, but I always make a deliberate effort to make sure the setup is fundamentally different depending on what I’m doing. So there’s a slight nuance that’ll change how I play. For example, Backslider, Triac and Reeking Cross are all pretty fast. But I have a totally different mechanical setup for Backslider than I do for Triac. For Backslider, the drums are mostly the same, but I sit lower, the snare is higher and the cymbals are a little higher with less angle. It’s a lot more of a rock-based Bonham setup. For Triac, I sit higher with everything tilted a bit more. It’s set up just for speed, less work for the body. Reeking Cross shifts and changes depending on what’s happening.

So beyond technique, changing your setup actually plays a pretty big part in how you adapt your approach to playing different genres.

Yeah, as far as gear goes for the grind bands I play in, that’s all the classic Ringo setup. For Backslider, I just play with a bigger rack tom. For Ar-Kaics and Multicult, I ditch the rack altogether. I’ve noticed if you take things away, you’re forced to think differently. With the three piece setup, I’m not only more creative, but I approach writing with much more restraint.

When I was young, my brother always played (A.K.A let me repeatedly steal from him) Jon Spencer Blues Explosion’s Orange record. I’m a huge fan of Russell Simins’s simple, organic drum sound. Once I realized he was playing a kit that was as simple as those parts – and at the same time as powerful as those parts – I decided to ditch the rack tom when I thought it unnecessary. That’s a direct reference to my Multicult setup. I started orienting my playing to the hi-hat to fill up some of that space and use as a whole other voice that I never would’ve focused on had I not removed the rack. I probably would've played very normal beats otherwise. I should also credit Jeff Mooridian of Vaz, one of my favorite bands. He always did really creative stuff with hi-hats.

Do you find it difficult to transition between the different styles of music you play? How do you deal with that sort of stuff?

Playing in Ar-Kaics has been really hard because I have a terrible rushing problem. In Multicult, I’d terrorized Nick and Rebecca with that. I’d go through the songs so quickly that no one knew what we’d just played. In the Ar-Kaics, where it’s an even more fragile, gentle communication, I started sitting really low. I realized something about needing to fight the mechanics of my gear and body movements helped me pace myself. I’ve been in the process of finding out where feels comfortable. In an effort to slow down, I’d also started sitting much lower for Multicult. That was weird because my cymbals were set high so I could have the downforce I needed on the kick and the snare. I learned to almost toss my hands up to the cymbals (as opposed to smashing down) to make that setup work. That took less effort and was much more ergonomic. My arms were just falling the whole time, which helped reduce a lot of body tension.

I’ve heard a lot of grindcore where the drum parts sort of just blend together (as influential as Mick Harris from Napalm Death was, those drum parts are kind of redundant). When I listen to your playing, your parts seem so well thought out. There’s always something new that makes each of your parts feel very distinct.

First off, I really appreciate you paying that degree of attention. For my drum parts, I don’t really plan all that much out. They’re just an expression of how I’m feeling at the time. A lot of drum parts can be stale, but I think what a lot of people forget about extreme music is that art is an emotional medium. The Mick Harris stuff may not have a bunch of technique, but it’s a powerful statement – hearing it, witnessing it, doing it. So I love that stuff. Technical surgeon-like metal drummers that write insane parts have their own nuanced approach. I personally think it’s all valid – just a bunch of different contributions to this one idea of playing on the far end of the spectrum. Even when parts are stale, it’s just another person trying to figure out how to do it out there. I don’t want to name bands that make music that might be considered repetitive and sterile, but I think that stuff serves a very specific purpose. Take the drums in Nuclear Death, these huge displays of energy that sound like someone backflipping into a blackhole and falling apart but work so well. That’s what it’s really all about, just a bunch of people throwing this energy out into the maelstrom. That’s what’s cool about it.

But surely your drum parts aren’t redundant. Do you think you approach metal drumming differently?

I don’t know if I approach metal drumming that differently; I just think later in life, I’ve been able to enjoy so much more music by really listening to it and not hitting it with all these parameters. For the longest time, I thought that if it doesn't sound like Assück, it’s not good. Now, I’m listening to all kinds of music. There’s so much great stuff to dive into, if you’re into that.

I’m a different drummer than I was a year ago. Hopefully I’m a different drummer next year. It’s all about learning and being able to hear more and appreciate more. I used to be pretty close-minded about extreme drumming, and I missed out on a lot of the enjoyment of incorporating different stuff. I’m making up for that now.

Can you tell me a bit about how you incorporate different stuff into your playing? Does that at all inform your perspective on all of the genre-tagging that exists within metal? I know that matters to a lot of people.

Well, take Backslider. It’s an amalgam of a bunch of different underground music. There’s a lot of blast beats, fastcore stuff, rhythmic pivots, etc. Backslider came up in the grind/PV world, but I think it has uniquely been able to stand next to a bunch of different types of music.

From the outside, so much of extreme music is just nonsense. As you move into that world, you're able to pick up all of that nuance and decipher the subtleties that often mean a great deal to many people. A lot of what makes Triac unique is what it doesn’t do. There’s no D-Beats and very few slow parts in our new stuff. The slow stuff is more abstract. A lot of purists will say Triac is grind, not grindcore.

Frankly none of that stuff matters to me if the music is good.

I hear a lot of metal drumming now that sounds so drastically different from what I’m used to. I totally agree that redundant, purist, genre-tagged metal serves a purpose, but it’s also really cool to see newer drummers doing things differently. Just off the top of my head, that alternating kick-floor tom thing Tyler Coburn does in place of a double kick comes to mind.

Tyler is such a fantastic drummer. There was actually a Multicult song where I had developed a part where I tried using the floor tom as a double kick. I remember thinking I had this genius idea, but then I saw Tyler do it. He does it so much better. Mine is just a bad ripoff!

There are so many great drummers. I think the beauty of drumming is that drummers are so happy to share in the experience of drumming. Every time I see Tyler it’s like, “Dude, I may swap this bottom snare head out for this, you should try out this trick I just learned, what was that cool thing you just did?” That’s the sort of stuff that comes up naturally between any drummer. We’re all just down to talk about this stuff. I’ll immediately walk into a room, hone in on drummers and start having a great time.

There’s no distance between interested drummers. I think drummers have this unique quality of supporting other drummers. I don’t see that with a lot of other instruments.

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/jcregger

Triac bandcamp: https://triacgrind.bandcamp.com

Backslider bandcamp: https://backslider.bandcamp.com

Reeking Cross bandcamp: https://reekingcross.bandcamp.com/

Writhing Mass bandcamp: https://nervealtar.bandcamp.com/album/human-capital

Multicult bandcamp: https://multicult.bandcamp.com

The Ar-kaics: https://shopdaptonerecords.com/collections/the-ar-kaics

Zulu Pearls: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1UhLgkbNnY

The Tender Thrill bandcamp: https://thetenderthrill.bandcamp.com/track/the-last-mile